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bryce zabel is an american television producer\h
director writer and occasional actor as well\h\h

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of course he has received the created by\h
or developed by credit of five network\h\h

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and syndicated television series he's a past\h
cnn correspondent and a well-known television\h\h

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writer and producer who is probably best known\h
in terms of his television contributions for\h\h

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the ufo themed tv series dark skies but he\h
also co-hosts a popular podcast right now\h\h

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called need to know with cool tart and zabel\h
he's co-author of the book a d after disclosure\h\h

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2012 and of course he writes at his very popular\h
trail of the saucers page on medium which i read\h\h

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i want you guys to read it too but right\h
now let's welcome to the program bryce\h\h

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zabel how are you bryce i'm good although\h
after that intro i feel tired i feel very tired\h\h

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yeah i know this this this business will really\h
wear you out wanted i mean i know you know what\h\h

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i think it energizes us i mean i hear it in\h
your voice and i hear it in mind we're living in\h\h

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in energetic times and there's a lot of work\h
to do and i think we're all trying to do it\h\h

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yeah absolutely and you know that's a great\h
lead-in for where i want to go right here at\h\h

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the outset and by the way as of the day that\h
we are recording this is president's day we're\h\h

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definitely going to get into that topic but you\h
know on the government discussion there's been so\h\h

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much happening these are definitely interesting\h
times to kind of live in and being someone who\h\h

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has written significantly about the idea of you\h
know what a post-disclosure world might look like\h\h

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has this been interesting especially for you\h
watching what has unfolded over the last few\h\h

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years it's been uh terrifically interesting as\h
you mentioned in your intro about a decade ago\h\h

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i wrote a book called a.d after disclosure with\h
richard dolan who i think is most of us would have\h\h

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to say is the preeminent ufo historian the man\h
knows his stuff and for about a year rich and i\h\h

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would uh as we were writing this book would call\h
each other and and talk every day about what do\h\h

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you think if or what if that happened right and so\h
it was there's this great mind puzzle was a lot of\h\h

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fun and and i think we wrote a book\h
that has stood the test of time\h\h

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uh in that it's still relevant today and if people\h
read it now i think they'd still find things to\h\h

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like about it but what was interesting is that now\h
that we're about 10 years out and we're post 2017\h\h

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i took another look at it the other day just to\h
try to see well what did we get right and what do\h\h

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we get wrong and i'm happy to report that most of\h
what we got we got right a few things i wouldn't\h\h

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even call them wrong i would just say we live\h
in a time where there was really a a couple of\h\h

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choices about this and since i'm out in hollywood\h
mike i'm just going to use a hollywood example uh\h\h

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you can have a slow cut or a or a hard i mean\h
a hard cut or a slow dissolve right even out in\h\h

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hollywood we get that wrong and so the question\h
about disclosure is is it going to be a hard cut\h\h

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or a slow dissolve a hard cut is the president\h
comes out there in the east room and says\h\h

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yeah you know uh guess what we're not alone\h
and by the way here's a three gigabyte or a\h\h

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three terabyte hard drive for everybody with all\h
the stuff that we've got and uh take a look okay\h\h

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that's pretty much a hard cut i think we're living\h
in a slow dissolve uh where uh day by day little\h\h

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by little we're sort of gaining a little bit more\h
knowledge and yet the effect is cumulative because\h\h

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that someday uh soon i think we're gonna wake up\h
and it'll be a hard cut so um i uh just to wrap\h\h

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up that thing one of the things that i thought was\h
so interesting about doing a.d and reviewing it is\h\h

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we tried to be very specific and i remember i'm\h
a news guy you've been in the the biz yourself\h\h

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so i sort of took uh a wild guess and said if\h
there ever is going to be a disclosure event it'll\h\h

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be on a friday after four o'clock because the uh\h
wall street will be shut down and the a team from\h\h

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all the news casts we'll be heading off to their\h
weekend retreats and the b team will be in charge\h\h

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and they have the weekend to finally get it right\h
well guess when the june 25th 2021 report came out\h\h

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after four o'clock on a friday so there you go\h
yeah that would only be one of the many things i\h\h

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think that you guys got right and again you know\h
dolan he's been a good buddy for many years and\h\h

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it has been fascinating to to see how this\h
has kind of come together you know on this\h\h

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president's day of 2022 as i mentioned i keep up\h
with your writing over there at your site uh and\h\h

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you have asked recently you know whether biden\h
should come out whether our current president\h\h

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should come out what he should say if i may\h
quote you here bryce you wrote stating that uap\h\h

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come from a non-human intelligence will shake up\h
politics and it will start a global conversation\h\h

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that could save the planet why do you feel that\h
well we need to be saved first we all know that\h\h

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we have our problems we don't seem to get along we\h
don't see what unites us we only see what divides\h\h

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us that's true between nations look at the current\h
situation in the ukraine it's true among people\h\h

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look at our political situation in the united\h
states so uh i just look at the obvious i'm not\h\h

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trying to say i'm smarter than anybody else or or\h
anything or that i've studied it more i have some\h\h

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academic credential to make this statement it just\h
seems obvious to me that if we finally acknowledge\h\h

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to ourselves that we're not alone and not only are\h
we not alone that they're not out there at some\h\h

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distant place but they're actually here\h
on earth in some way interacting with us\h\h

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if if there is anything that's going to unite us\h
it would have to be that we would then see that we\h\h

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have more in common than we don't and and that's\h
what we need we need to start looking at the\h\h

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the shared problems that the the earth uh\h
encounters and we have to take take them in\h\h

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into account and we have to start work on them\h
and we should have started that work yesterday\h\h

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i mean metaphorically like 100 years ago but it's\h
you know this is the cards we have dealt ourselves\h\h

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but i think a little disclosure could go a long\h
way now um i always quote dr strangelove buck\h\h

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tergetson the uh the general played by uh george\h
c scott when he's talking about nuclear war says\h\h

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i ain't saying we're not going to get our hair\h
must all right and i think that that's probably\h\h

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true of disclosure it's going to be a bumpy ride\h
but we got to get it going it's happening now\h\h

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let's get it on and let's find out where we come\h
out on the other side yeah well said indeed and\h\h

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you know i can tell by the way uh that you have\h
worked in broadcast and television because again\h\h

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you you're so well spoken i always appreciate that\h
of course having a background in radio myself but\h\h

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to your other points too bryce it is kind of funny\h
how uh how short-sighted how you know how how much\h\h

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tunnel vision we as humans tend to have how we\h
tend to look out there and we say let's go find\h\h

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evidence of other life other forms of intelligence\h
i've always said wouldn't the greatest paradox\h\h

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won't it in fact probably be when we finally\h
begin to look at the strange phenomena occurring\h\h

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right here within our own atmosphere and we start\h
saying okay this is really happening and we didn't\h\h

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have to look out there we didn't need maybe the\h
james webb space telescope to find these things\h\h

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they were right under our nose all along well i\h
think you and i both agree we're thrilled about\h\h

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the james webb telescope because we want to see\h
all these cool new pictures i mean if they're\h\h

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beyond hubble quality oh my god i just can't wait\h
but i will say this for years it has just bothered\h\h

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me that the media has been willing to cover seti\h
the search for extraterrestrial intelligence to\h\h

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the degree that they have which was basically\h
aimed at looking out there to find some evidence\h\h

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of other life and we would have been thrilled\h
to find a frozen microbe on mars and yet there's\h\h

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there's evidence mountains of evidence that we're\h
seeing something right here on earth that is\h\h

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intelligently controlled and it doesn't appear to\h
be us and that doesn't get the coverage so yeah um\h\h

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i i think that will be probably the greatest\h
irony that history books of the future that will\h\h

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be written over the next 20 30 40 50 years are\h
going to have to comment on they're going to say\h\h

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it's very curious that from say the end of world\h
war ii until disclosure really happened in the\h\h

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2020s that people kept wanting to believe it\h
was not here but there uh when it the evidence\h\h

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was right in front of them but you know that'll\h
be for historians to write after you and i have\h\h

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shuffled off that's right yeah we got to do the\h
grunt work right now but yeah someday on down the\h\h

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road somebody else is going to be able to take\h
the credit i don't doubt that but you know i\h\h

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want to come back around a little later to these\h
scientists and what some modern scientists have\h\h

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and have not had to say about this topic but\h
you know sticking with the president uh id or\h\h

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the presidential theme of president's day i know\h
you've looked at this a lot you know of course i\h\h

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also am fascinated i would actually consider\h
presidents day a very important american holiday\h\h

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in terms of ufology because of the involvement\h
that various uh numbers of our leaders over time\h\h

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over the last several decades you know several\h
last presidencies you know the involvement they've\h\h

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actually had with this topic to varying degrees i\h
know you follow that too and in terms of what we\h\h

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have going on right now let's start with you know\h
our current commander-in-chief president biden\h\h

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you know i'm a little troubled by how little he\h
has actually had to say how little engagement\h\h

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he's had with this topic do you share that view as\h
juxtaposed against certain other administrations\h\h

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from the past and how much they've had to say\h
about it sure well first of all happy presidents\h\h

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day to you and all your your listeners uh yeah\h
i think we we do have a situation here where we\h\h

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can we can break this down into two pieces\h
we can always talk about speculation about\h\h

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what other presidents knew or didn't know\h
and we'd probably get to that in a minute\h\h

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uh but we can talk about what they did know or\h
do know and let's land right on biden's porch\h\h

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right now he has been a disappointment in that\h
the one time he specifically was asked about it\h\h

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uh he did what they used to always do he turned\h
it into a joke he laughed and they were asking\h\h

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him whether he had heard that president obama\h
his his president when he was vice president\h\h

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was now copying to the fact that these uap are\h
unknown and unidentified and he said well you'll\h\h

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have to ask him or ask him again i believe was his\h
quote that is not acceptable to me uh president\h\h

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biden is the chief executive of the united states\h
he's the commander-in-chief of our armed forces\h\h

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his own government is is creating reports right\h
now that acknowledge that it's true the senate\h\h

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and the house have passed legislation demanding\h
answers so i expect more from the president\h\h

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now let's break that down a little further\h
my expectation is he can do better i don't\h\h

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give him an a or b or a c or a d on that it's a\h
fail right now because we're not talking about\h\h

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it now i get that there's a lot of things on\h
his plate i understand that there are things\h\h

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he'd probably rather talk about so that's true\h
what does he know well he should know a lot his\h\h

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vice president kamala harris of course was on the\h
senate intelligence committee when it reported out\h\h

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the legislation that created the june 25th report\h
but more than that joe biden has made a career\h\h

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of being on the various committees that have to\h
do with national security he's had deep briefing\h\h

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i believe he was part of the gang of eight for\h
for years as well in the senate and the house so\h\h

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yeah he knows that uap uh really is unidentified\h
he knows that the us military has come in contact\h\h

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with it continually and is having that happen now\h
whether he knows all the details going back to\h\h

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the late 40s whether he's been briefed\h
deeply on what the best theories of\h\h

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scientists and generals and researchers are\h
i don't know but he certainly knows enough\h\h

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that he should level with the american people\h
that's my take yeah i agree completely again you\h\h

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know in terms of accountability we're seeing\h
so much momentum right now so many different\h\h

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uh you know members of congress you know elected\h
officials who are engaging with this we've seen\h\h

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the establishment of not one but perhaps two\h
unless they combine them the aoi msg and then\h\h

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of course also the uap unit that was outlined in\h
the gila brand amendment to the national defense\h\h

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authorization act for this year with all of that\h
you would hope that the chief executive you know\h\h

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in the oval office would also be saying yeah we\h
take this seriously now you know jinsaki during a\h\h

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press conference indicated as much last year but\h
it does seem to me based on the president's own\h\h

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uh you know talking about this and what little\h
he has said as you pointed out that he kind of\h\h

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comes from the old guard perspective we all kind\h
of chuckle and we laugh at little green men when\h\h

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this topic comes up we're no longer at that point\h
and again for anyone who is still willing to say\h\h

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guys come on you know mylar balloons and things\h
like this you know drifting around out there\h\h

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when we have some of the most sophisticated\h
technologies at the disposal of our military that\h\h

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is being used to capture these things and when\h
the dod puts out a statement themselves saying we\h\h

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clasp the objects in those videos is unidentified\h
that should indeed be an issue that goes right up\h\h

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to the very top and i think the president needs\h
to take it seriously as such it totally it's his\h\h

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job and listen mike i appreciate you brought up\h
the trail of the saucers article and by the way\h\h

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for people that actually would like to read\h
this particular article we're talking about\h\h

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just go to trailofthesaucers.com it's pretty\h
simple trailofthesaucers.com you'll find all of\h\h

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them but the one in particular that we're talking\h
about is i just got so fed up the one thing about\h\h

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being a writer is if nobody else is writing the\h
thing you want to read you can write it yourself\h\h

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okay yeah so for years i was just you know part\h
of the trailer of the saucers thing for me was\h\h

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i just wanted other people to write these\h
things with a little more edge and with uh\h\h

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you know just the professionalism of a magazine\h
quality article like what the debrief does and\h\h

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and so what i thought was okay well nobody's\h
writing what i want to read about biden so i'm\h\h

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going to write it so i wrote a series of articles\h
during the election about what potentially biden's\h\h

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briefing memo should be about the ufo uap issue\h
as he was getting elected and coming into office\h\h

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and then finally i just said okay the june 25th\h
report has come out you can bet that president\h\h

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biden got a chance to read it a day or two before\h
that's just how those things are done and even\h\h

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if he had to read it the night of he still\h
should have had a sobering moment and frankly\h\h

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he has had no doubt the best briefing that they\h
have and we know in the senate the people that\h\h

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have gotten the good briefing come out pretty\h
chastened right they come out a little sober so\h\h

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um i thought i'm going to write the speech that\h
he ought to give i know he won't give it but\h\h

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maybe just maybe somebody in washington who\h
works for him will read this thing and go\h\h

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wow that actually makes a lot of sense we are\h
going to have to do this at some time or another\h\h

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and um and you know so i wrote it and\h
and i actually well you know again you\h\h

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can go back and say well maybe this detail\h
should be i mean i'm not saying that i'm the\h\h

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uh chief speechwriter of the white house or should\h
be but i tried to sort of channel my inner era and\h\h

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sork and a guy who i know and always enjoyed what\h
he wrote i just thought what would be the best\h\h

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speech that an that a president could give at this\h
point in time the aaron sorkin west wing version\h\h

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where where he you hear it and you feel like\h
that's a good man trying to level with us and\h\h

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and i actually think um that's what biden needs to\h
do right now and it's possible it's just possible\h\h

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micah this could happen because i think we are due\h
um well i know we're due for the new report that's\h\h

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been um ordered by the senate in the house and the\h
national defense authority authorization act on\h\h

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october 31st all right that is eight days before\h
the midterm elections i mean we are throwing\h\h

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the ultimate october surprise potentially into an\h
election period so if that october surprise comes\h\h

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and if it's major and if it and if the politics of\h
the situation are such maybe somebody like biden\h\h

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will do that and if he doesn't do it in 2022\h
he's going to have to think to himself would\h\h

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my fortunes politically be improved or or ruined\h
by leveling with the people about uap and frankly\h\h

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where his numbers are right now he may think what\h
have i got to lose i hope he thinks that indeed\h\h

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and i gotta say we're having quite a conversation\h
here with bryce zabal you can follow him online\h\h

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at trailofthesaucers.com i'll have that linked\h
in the show notes as well definitely check out\h\h

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what bryce has to say on not just the politics\h
but also some of the scientific implications\h\h

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of the uap issue which we're going to get into\h
with him here in just a moment bryce another\h\h

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thing too about your site and i told you this also\h
in private communication you did a great roundup\h\h

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of articles or rather events from last year in\h
an article and i told you this i said you know\h\h

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yet again this was like the article that everybody\h
wanted nobody had written until you came along i\h\h

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did it and i wanted to ask you because 2021 was\h
arguably the most significant year for this topic\h\h

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in recent memory and that not because of events\h
you look back to like 1973 and all the high\h\h

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profile events involving actual uap observations\h
last year it wasn't that so much as it was\h\h

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the government has finally opened up and said okay\h
this is an issue worthy of attention yet again\h\h

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and the public debate the\h
media presence the governmental\h\h

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relationship i mean all of these things seem to\h
have been bolstered significantly to you in terms\h\h

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of all of the events of last year was there\h
one that stood out to you well um yeah i mean\h\h

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what's ironic is as i began to accumulate\h
what i thought were the top 10 events of 2021\h\h

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uh i thought it's got to be the june 25th\h
2021 um preliminary report on unidentified\h\h

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aerial phenomena the report that most of your\h
listeners have either heard about and many have\h\h

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read uh it's a brief little nine-page read\h
but it's kind of explosive in that it says\h\h

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uh their the phenomena is real uh we probably\h
don't make these they're not made in america and\h\h

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we don't think russia or china probably make them\h
either which pretty well leaves the question open\h\h

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okay doing the math i'm not sure what that leaves\h
so i thought that had to be number one and then in\h\h

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the final days it was like a horse race where\h
the number two horse sprints by at the end\h\h

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in the final days biden actually signed the\h
national defense authorization act putting\h\h

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into law all this incredible legislation proposed\h
by kirsten gillibrand of new york and marco rubio\h\h

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is the co-sponsor from florida and passed by the\h
house and the senate uh you know mandating these\h\h

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yearly reports mandated mandating data sharing and\h
so many other things investigations that i thought\h\h

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well that's the one you know that's the top story\h
of the year and it was littered with other great\h\h

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stories of course it's got lou elizondo talking\h
about crash records just got uh you know my god\h\h

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60 minutes breaking its embargo on the topic\h
and actually doing a piece there were just a\h\h

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lot of things and i thought it was really a big\h
year i mean clearly the sort of the pearl harbor\h\h

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jfk assassination 9 11 date that's going to stand\h
out for people who are in the know about this is\h\h

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still going to be december 17th uh 2017 when the\h
new york times sort of brought us and yanked us\h\h

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into this modern era we're at but june 25th 2021\h
is a good date and if that next report comes out\h\h

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and it's even more incredible october 31st of 2022\h
might be the big one yeah i mean the best maybe\h\h

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yet to come in fact and again i mean who knows\h
with everything we've seen over the last few years\h\h

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i don't think many of us would have expected some\h
of the developments that have occurred and uh with\h\h

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now the aoi msg and of course i know that many are\h
concerned in fact gillibrand's office got back to\h\h

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me for an article i did about that and they had\h
also been concerned about the limited scope of\h\h

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the aoi msg luella zondo had also expressed his\h
concerns in that regard you know of course i've\h\h

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seen you guys talking about it as well and bryce\h
you know you always have something to say about\h\h

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these developments but i will nonetheless say\h
that it is significant that the pentagon went\h\h

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to the trouble of establishing this organization\h
uh and that it took seriously enough the fact that\h\h

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these issues are occurring in controlled aerospace\h
because this is not something that the dod said it\h\h

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looked at in years past as recently as 2015 a\h
fact page on the dod website said as you know\h\h

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we no longer look into this topic the ufos were\h
investigated back in the 60s what we also know\h\h

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is that well prior to 2015 when that fact page was\h
still on the dod website we actually had the ossap\h\h

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initiative out of the dia we also had the informal\h
atip initiative since then we've had the uap\h\h

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task force and now again possibly two groups\h
if not the combination of aoi msg with another\h\h

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there's been an incredible amount happening and\h
so again if that trend continues it very well may\h\h

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be that the best is yet to come your thoughts\h
well i mean it certainly might be look i uh

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reports are being written and there's more\h
going on i don't think any of us think that\h\h

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the government itself should or or must be held as\h
the only source of information i think a lot of us\h\h

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we have the technology now to start looking into\h
this for ourselves and that the government's\h\h

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not going to be worth forthcoming well that's\h
their problem uh you know hopefully we can we can\h\h

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work on that it's very funny you were kind enough\h
also to mention the need to know podcast that i'm\h\h

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doing with ross coltart and we were talking about\h
this the other day and uh and by the way that's\h\h

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need to know dot today need to know not today\h
um thank you again um but one of the things that\h\h

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i you know just the funny part of it is\h
i go aoi msg does not roll off the tongue\h\h

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and it's almost like it's not blue book it's not\h
even uap task force kind of made sense but aoi\h\h

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msg no so you know tongue-in-cheek but actually\h
i think somebody's got to do this we have to give\h\h

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it a nickname we we have got to you know when\h
you say the investigation it's not going to be\h\h

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we got to do better than aoi msg because you\h
know you and i are knowledgeable about this and i\h\h

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i honestly airborne object identification hang\h
on um okay i'm lost help me out i got the first\h\h

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management and synchronization group is that\h
right yes beautiful all right so it takes put\h\h

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our heads together look what happens bryce it\h
takes two guys that are that have podcasts on\h\h

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this subject to kind of puzzle through it that's\h
crazy um okay best is yet to come though let me\h\h

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let me take that on seriously sure in the respect\h
that the best is yet to come and we're talking\h\h

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best as being uh a forthcoming nature about\h
what's really going on then yeah the best is\h\h

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bet yet to come because we haven't had that\h
in in an authentic way and we're about to\h\h

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more and more every year when we actually\h
find out what's going on will that be the\h\h

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best outcome i don't know because like you i don't\h
know exactly why we haven't heard in 70 some years\h\h

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i don't know exactly what the best theories\h
are that people have i don't know whether it's\h\h

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incredibly troubling that would explain one\h
reason why a joe biden can't go talk about it\h\h

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but another one could easily be um i i like\h
to say the universe uh is not only stranger\h\h

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than we imagine it may be stranger than we\h
can imagine right so if it's that strange\h\h

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if the truth that is behind all this is such\h
a mind-blowing thing you know it'd be hard for\h\h

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joe biden who comes from another era to figure\h
out how to look the people in the eye and go\h\h

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yeah i don't know how this stuff works either\h
because that would be a very unsettling thing so\h\h

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is the best yet to come um in terms of the actual\h
ultimate final reality that we sort of settle on\h\h

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i don't know i hope so right and that\h
best again may be just i mean the\h\h

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clearest picture that we have had to date of what\h
this phenomena actually represents you know again\h\h

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i was um very delighted to see that dr valet\h
was featured in wired recently and the article\h\h

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essentially was i mean their big headline was jack\h
valet still doesn't know what ufos are and uh it's\h\h

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rather paradoxical that this is you know and i\h
mean this by the way uh with respect because i've\h\h

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always enjoyed valet's books and i respect his\h
you know opinions on the topic but i find it\h\h

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paradoxical that one of the world's leading\h
experts on this one of the the few scientists\h\h

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who i mean who has been with this almost since day\h
one he was working right under hynek over there at\h\h

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northwestern university you know working i mean\h
almost his shadow during the blue book years\h\h

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all the way up to the present day and he's like\h
you know look this phenomenon is probably stranger\h\h

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than we realize it's got an element of humor\h
that i mean almost transcends everything that\h\h

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we understand about our own reality we're a long\h
ways from really figuring out what this is that\h\h

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should really i think phrase where we are with uap\h
and so again the best you know whatever may come\h\h

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this year or in any future year on any future\h
report prize it may be a clearer picture but i\h\h

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think we're still a ways from getting to the point\h
where we understand what it is and look i want to\h\h

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mention another article of yours the trail of the\h
saucers because you wrote and i loved this article\h\h

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because you you basically are just saying look you\h
know here is what we know and what we don't know\h\h

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you wrote humanity's survival in what may be a\h
crowded universe requires rapid thinking and bold\h\h

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action we need to level up fast that really that\h
statement that you wrote phrases the challenge\h\h

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that we are met with with uap why do we need to\h
level up how can we even do that in your mind\h\h

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you know that is my poster statement i guess or\h
my high concept yeah i work out in hollywood and\h\h

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you know there's the elevator pitch and the\h
you know you go in and you pitch your show and\h\h

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you have to do it fast and you have to give them\h
the high concept so what you just read and thank\h\h

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you for reading it um it's sort of after a lot\h
of thought i just sort of thought where are we\h\h

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you know what what is going on and it does seem\h
to me that we may be in a crowded universe i\h\h

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mean that that part i'm starting to get now\h
uh if there's i and i always say to people it\h\h

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may not people ask me what's going on is it\h
this or that i go well it may not be a or b\h\h

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or c it might be z right we we we don't know and\h
so when i say humanity needs to level up fast i is\h\h

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it's another way of saying we need to get our act\h
together we need to do two things simultaneously\h\h

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we have to reform ourselves and our institutions\h
sufficiently to maintain the home that we live in\h\h

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uh and make it livable there will never be\h
another planet is good for people i don't\h\h

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care if you go to mars and terraform it or do\h
anything nothing's ever going to be as good as\h\h

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the earth so we've got to save it we've got to\h
do that at the same time we've got to be able to\h\h

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do two things at once and the other is we've got\h
to deal with this intelligence or intelligences\h\h

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that are are approaching us at this\h
point and leveling up fast means\h\h

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putting all of us together on this job uh the\h
the elites the idea that it's such a disturbing\h\h

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thing that for 70 some years it's had to\h
be so classified while people work on it\h\h

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and then everybody on the outside has to be told\h
they're crazy or lying or hoaxing or something\h\h

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that's old school thinking new school thinking\h
is to bring everybody in on the problem at the\h\h

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same time and let the best minds of humanity work\h
together and share and collaborate because i'll\h\h

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say this again yeah one of my credits was i\h
was the ceo of the television academy and i\h\h

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remember the day i got elected and the executive\h
director there i was the you know the chairman now\h\h

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the elected guy and he was the guy that worked and\h
he just said let me just tell you one thing bryce\h\h

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all of us together are smarter than any\h
one of us now i think he was telling me\h\h

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to be humble and and i took it as such that i\h
may have my ideas but they're not necessarily\h\h

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better than yours or anybody else's but that if we\h
all work together we do tend to vet the best ideas\h\h

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and so the essence of we need to level up fast\h
is we need to get directed we need to do it\h\h

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rapidly and we need to share our work and if\h
there's any problem that has gone on in the last\h\h

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70 some years that has been the biggest problem\h
facing us it is the the work that was being done\h\h

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was not shared that must end so that's what i was\h
talking about very very very important words right\h\h

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there from bryce is able he is my guest this\h
week and now you know why i've brought him onto\h\h

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the program because again when we put our heads\h
together you know and that the entire community\h\h

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not just bryce and i that's what you get again\h
one more reason i'm so thrilled that you and\h\h

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ross coulthard are doing a podcast together\h
now i want to see more you know investigations\h\h

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i want to see more you know thinkers coming\h
together and putting together their ideas bryce\h\h

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i was reading on keith basterfield's blog and\h
he's a great australian researcher he in fact\h\h

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and ross no doubt have been in touch i think ross\h
credits him in his book you know which i enjoyed\h\h

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ross's book a lot and uh you know keith wrote on\h
his blog advice to ufo researchers he says write\h\h

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about this if you do research publish it don't\h
don't hide it and yes one of the criticisms i do\h\h

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have and i think this is a fair one um i also read\h
uh lakatsky's book on you know skin walkers at the\h\h

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pentagon and the in the uh all sat program dr mark\h
rodinger of the center for ufo studies uh and i\h\h

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were talking about this and he said you know it's\h
a shame that all that information based on you\h\h

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know recent interviews that likatsky and colin\h
kelleher and others have done that information\h\h

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is not going to be made available to the public\h
and isn't that part of the problem that we have\h\h

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faced for decades already so i mean you know\h
i know many out there are championing asap and\h\h

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those who were a part of it and i do appreciate\h
that there were people in government looking at it\h\h

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that's one side of it the other side is and\h
what is done with that information who will\h\h

324
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:24,640
have access to it you know at what point will\h
there be more accountability and transparency\h\h

325
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:29,760
i don't think that that is an unrealistic question\h
to ask nor is it an unfair question to ask\h\h

326
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:36,000
it's not and and let's face it i'm sure you\h
agree and lou elizondo has said this before\h\h

327
00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:41,520
and chris mellon says it and i'll say it again\h
there are legitimate reasons for classification\h\h

328
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:47,360
all right absolutely i i am not saying that\h
everything ever known that ever happened in every\h\h

329
00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:54,320
way must all be released at once but i am saying\h
that what we should do is acknowledge at least\h\h

330
00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:59,920
the reality that we're living with so that parts\h
of it could be classified because they have other\h\h

331
00:30:59,920 --> 00:31:05,120
legitimate reasons for being classified that you\h
can explain to people but that the larger issue\h\h

332
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:10,080
of yeah we're not going to make fun of you if you\h
actually do research on this or believe that this\h\h

333
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:16,960
is a true story uh not that we we need to get to\h
and and we just really do live in that time where\h\h

334
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:26,800
we're gonna have to get to work on this and we\h
don't have a lot of time so um i i look forward to\h\h

335
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:32,720
the years ahead i think it's time to sort of put\h
the past behind us i know there'll be accountings\h\h

336
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:38,800
that have to be made when we do this but uh we\h
still have to get on with the work and i do you\h\h

337
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:44,640
know i just wanted to pass on a little story\h
because i think it's it sort of shows why you\h\h

338
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:50,160
know you'd mention skin walkers and you mentioned\h
jacques valley and you know another person in that\h\h

339
00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:57,680
is uh is john keel uh who who wrote his his famous\h
books where people are saying there's more to it\h\h

340
00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:02,960
than ufos flying around in the sky well there's\h
some of them flying around underwater and but then\h\h

341
00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:08,320
there's also some weird stuff that you know as a\h
phenomenon it's just weird and it's coincidental\h\h

342
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:12,960
and it's synchronous and what's up with all that\h
and you know people have their stories i'm just\h\h

343
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:18,880
going to share one little weird one with you\h
when i was doing dark skies which was uh the nbc\h\h

344
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:25,760
alien invasion series late 90s i was working with\h
a gentleman named brent v friedman my creative\h\h

345
00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:31,520
partner and brandt said to me at the time you know\h
because i had this i this massive ufo library and\h\h

346
00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:36,240
he has his life we all have our libraries right\h
and he was looking at my library one day about 100\h\h

347
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:40,640
volumes he goes you don't have john keel in here\h
i said yeah i guess not he goes you know you ought\h\h

348
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:46,080
to read the mothman prophecies and i said yeah but\h
i don't have a lot of time i mean we're trying to\h\h

349
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:51,760
put the show on and he said why'd you just read\h
it so i he may have even gotten me the copy and\h\h

350
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:56,160
i started reading it and i my mind was kind of\h
blown and by the way when we're talking about\h\h

351
00:32:56,160 --> 00:33:01,600
john keel and weird things in one of john keele's\h
early books he pointed out that most ufo sightings\h\h

352
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:08,320
of all happen on wednesdays well why would that\h
be who knows right so i'm reading uh john keel\h\h

353
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:12,000
the mothman prophecies and for people that don't\h
know what that's about you can look it up they\h\h

354
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:17,440
made a movie there's a great wikipedia page\h
about it anyway so i'm reading this thing and\h\h

355
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:22,320
um it's because it's my active book and i you know\h
there are no kindles at this time it's sitting in\h\h

356
00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:28,720
backseat of my car and one day my wife says you\h
know you need to take your son jonathan to see a\h\h

357
00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:34,000
movie because he really wants to see this movie\h
and you need to do it so i said absolutely so\h\h

358
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:39,360
i take my son and we go see this movie and we're\h
walking out of the movie theater after the movie\h\h

359
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:45,040
you know he's like 10 years old and we're walking\h
out and coming at us from the other direction is\h\h

360
00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:50,560
and it's dark it's the dark parking lot but\h
there's a guy with a long black duster jacket\h\h

361
00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:57,280
on with a black hat and he's wearing what looked\h
like dark glasses i mean he didn't look normal or\h\h

362
00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:02,240
friendly right so the first thing i did is i take\h
my son and i push him off to the side and i go\h\h

363
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:06,960
just don't look at him just keep walking because\h
we got to get to our car and i don't want to run\h\h

364
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:12,640
away from this weird looking guy right so we just\h
walk and we don't say anything as we're walking\h\h

365
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:19,840
past him he walks past me and i look over there\h
and he's carrying a copy of the mothman prophecies\h\h

366
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:25,920
oh well how does that happen okay so you\h
know you talk about the cosmic trickster and\h\h

367
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:32,160
you know there's just something else about\h
this so i just wanted to use that to underline\h\h

368
00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:36,320
to you that when we finally start to get\h
our arms around it our arms aren't going\h\h

369
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:41,360
to be large enough to get around it right\h
what we're going to get are better theories\h\h

370
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:44,960
and certain things we'll be able to\h
figure out and say we'll be able to say\h\h

371
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:51,760
in general they can go this fast or they have\h
this capacity of flight or the following things\h\h

372
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:57,760
have been observed but you know i think what got\h
me into writing essays is the first essay i wrote\h\h

373
00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:02,640
on this topic i believe was back during a.d\h
and i wrote an essay called how can all this\h\h

374
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:09,520
be reconciled and the and what i meant was how\h
how are we to reconcile the john keel strangeness\h\h

375
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:18,160
with crop circles and animal mutilations and ufos\h
that go flying around and submersible objects\h\h

376
00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:23,280
and military sightings and people sightings\h
and abductions and historical things and

377
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:29,360
i mean and i don't have a good answer right\h
now i don't know how we reconcile it all\h\h

378
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:34,160
but clearly people like you and me and the people\h
who are listening to this would like us to figure\h\h

379
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:39,200
that out indeed i'm so glad you brought up john\h
keel by the way you know over the last few months\h\h

380
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:44,800
i mean i've just gone back over almost everything\h
that keel wrote and you know and i've said on this\h\h

381
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:49,360
podcast i don't necessarily agree with all of his\h
conclusions but what i really love about his and\h\h

382
00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:55,680
the same goes for valet both of those guys were\h
were really out of the box thinkers valet still is\h\h

383
00:35:56,400 --> 00:36:01,040
the book you mentioned operation trojan horse\h
yes in that book you know keel he gets into the\h\h

384
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:05,120
ufo thing and he starts saying okay i'm going to\h
get to the bottom of this i think he'd actually\h\h

385
00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:09,520
been um tasked with writing an article he had\h
made a pitch to playboy magazine and said i'm\h\h

386
00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:15,520
going to write the best ufo article that's ever\h
been written but i mean what he did was he set\h\h

387
00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:20,160
aside all the presumptions that okay this must be\h
extraterrestrial i'm going to go and join nycap\h\h

388
00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:24,960
and read all their publications no he said you\h
know i'm going to collect newspaper reports i'm\h\h

389
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:29,440
going to call newspaper reporters i'm going to\h
ask them what the witnesses have said i'm going\h\h

390
00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:34,640
to subscribe to every newspaper clipping service\h
and i'm going to do a comprehensive analysis of\h\h

391
00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:40,640
what people say they see right and that book is\h
incredible and even though of course by the end\h\h

392
00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:45,040
of the book he's saying you know these things\h
are ultra terrestrials which i mean is not as\h\h

393
00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:51,040
far out a concept as it sounds the term almost is\h
sort of unfortunate i wish in in some ways that\h\h

394
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:56,000
maybe we could rebrand kiel's idea because the\h
premise is not necessarily that far out there\h\h

395
00:36:56,000 --> 00:37:00,960
he's not he's he's open to all these possibilities\h
but what he's really saying is essentially this\h\h

396
00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:07,440
we don't have enough data to conclude that uap are\h
extraterrestrial biological entities and you know\h\h

397
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:13,360
spacecraft flying here from zeta reticuli he's\h
saying there is something but we don't really have\h\h

398
00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:18,320
enough information about what this is but what in\h
likelihood has happened throughout human history\h\h

399
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:24,240
is we have called these things by many names\h
angels demons jinns you know deities demigods\h\h

400
00:37:24,240 --> 00:37:29,840
and and and because of that kill kind of got\h
branded a a you know a demonologist but again\h\h

401
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:34,800
i find even if you don't necessarily conclude what\h
he did even if you're still you know a holdout for\h\h

402
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:40,080
the et visitation idea kiel's books are really\h
interesting and he applied a lot of interesting\h\h

403
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:44,160
analysis and i really think people should go\h
back and re-read operation trojan horse and\h\h

404
00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:48,960
mothman prophecies like you mentioned there's\h
some interesting uh you know thought-provoking\h\h

405
00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:54,880
commentary provided there here's all i can say\h
is and i bet you do it too um i used to say okay\h\h

406
00:37:55,440 --> 00:38:01,040
you know i i'm a screenwriter primarily by trade\h
i started as a cnn correspondent in tv news but\h\h

407
00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:05,600
then i became a screenwriter went to the dark\h
side if you will but what happens when you're a\h\h

408
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:10,720
screenwriter is you start researching on a project\h
and you know you don't have a lot of time to get\h\h

409
00:38:10,720 --> 00:38:16,640
up to speed so what and and so you couldn't like\h
say the first thing i was writing was a ufo piece\h\h

410
00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:23,440
right i um i didn't have time to learn everything\h
about ufos right or most recently i've written\h\h

411
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:27,680
a book about jfk and about the beatles right i\h
didn't have everything who can read everything\h\h

412
00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:32,800
about jfk and everything about the beatles right\h
so how do i do it i do what i kind of call the the\h\h

413
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:39,200
mind meld thing i just start exposing my brain to\h
a lot of different things as fast as i can so i'm\h\h

414
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:43,760
reading books but i don't read the book all at\h
the same time i read a little bit here jump to\h\h

415
00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:51,120
another book listen to a podcast um you know look\h
up articles and reports just kind of start feeding\h\h

416
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:58,960
things in there and as i go to sleep i try to\h
think about that topic and that kind of gives\h\h

417
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:02,880
my brain a chance to sort of say okay this is what\h
i'm going to think about tonight tonight i'm going\h\h

418
00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:06,880
to think about why the beatles broke up right\h
and then you wake up in the morning and you go\h\h

419
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:11,760
maybe it wasn't yoko or you know what\h
i'm saying so i've been applying that to\h\h

420
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:19,120
to ufos for years i keep trying to do this neural\h
web of of stuff and catch up and it never ends\h\h

421
00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:23,120
so i would suggest people it's a great way to\h
do it you don't have to read just one book or\h\h

422
00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:28,000
or whatever a little keel is a good thing to\h
add to it and if you don't mind can i just take\h\h

423
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:33,680
do a little moment on ross coldheart please\h
yeah because here's the thing we both liked\h\h

424
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:38,720
his book i'm sure he wrote a book called in plain\h
sight and for people that don't know ross he's an\h\h

425
00:39:38,720 --> 00:39:44,400
investigative reporter of great merit in australia\h
has won all the top awards and happens to be a\h\h

426
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:49,840
warm and loving and interesting human being so\h
he's just a great guy and i had read his book\h\h

427
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:56,800
and i was supposed to have met with him in um in\h
december of 2019 because i was i went to australia\h\h

428
00:39:56,800 --> 00:40:02,960
and i was escaping the brush fires here in los\h
angeles so i went to australia to escape them and\h\h

429
00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:09,200
actually landed with my family with a month-long\h
vacation in australia during their bushfires\h\h

430
00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:15,200
so we spent 30 days running from bushfires and i\h
never got to meet ross and it's too bad because he\h\h

431
00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:20,400
was working he was finishing up his book at that\h
time anyway his book comes out i read it i think\h\h

432
00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:29,040
this is exactly what we need to do somebody ross\h
was a skeptic uh he applied the the knowledge he's\h\h

433
00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:34,320
gained as an investigative journalist to doing\h
a deep dive on this thing and he has a mind that\h\h

434
00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:38,960
holds facts better than mine and he held a lot\h
of these together and wrote a really good book\h\h

435
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:43,360
and so i ended up saying you know getting hold\h
of him and calling him on zoom and saying i want\h\h

436
00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:48,320
to talk about your book etc and we had a series\h
of zoom conferences where we just would sort of\h\h

437
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:53,360
like what you and i are doing you're just bouncing\h
off the walls it's like bing boom boom you know\h\h

438
00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:57,520
and we're talking about this and we thought\h
one day well what if we just sort of put this\h\h

439
00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:03,680
on the air we're both broadcasters why don't\h
we just put this on the air so we tried that\h\h

440
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:08,000
and that has evolved into this thing called\h
need to know with coldheart and zabel which is\h\h

441
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:12,640
our podcast so now of course it's podcasters\h
interviewing podcasters that's its own issue\h\h

442
00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:17,440
we'll talk about that later but what we're setting\h
out to do that i think you can relate to because\h\h

443
00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:25,280
you're doing it at the debrief as well is we\h
thought okay before we can talk about how it all\h\h

444
00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:32,000
relates and and get into the woo factor which uh\h
has its own upside and downside let's try to tell\h\h

445
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:36,560
ourselves what we know and let's start applying\h
some of the rational skills that we've learned as\h\h

446
00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:42,080
investigative reporters which is working sources\h
having sources turn you on to other sources\h\h

447
00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:48,800
doing your research preparing your questions ahead\h
of time having someone to talk to about it to\h\h

448
00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:54,560
bounce off and find out what you're knowing and so\h
what ross and i were are sort of attempting to do\h\h

449
00:41:54,560 --> 00:42:01,440
uh is to put on the air if you will us\h
having those conversations as if we were\h\h

450
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:07,920
i'm not saying we're woodward and bernstein nobody\h
is or was i'm just saying it's the style that that\h\h

451
00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:12,560
journalists bring to it and we need a little\h
bit more of that so um that's what we're doing\h\h

452
00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:18,000
on this need to know dot today but but the reason\h
i brought it up is just it's kind of what we're\h\h

453
00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:24,880
doing right now micah we're we're two people that\h
are well read and we're not jumping to conclusions\h\h

454
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:30,640
we're trying to stick with well what do we know\h
when did we know it and what does it mean and so\h\h

455
00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:36,880
we're trying to separate because the problem with\h
ufos uips is there's vast amounts of speculation\h\h

456
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:42,320
that can be done i could speculate we could go 12\h
hours right now if you said let's just speculate\h\h

457
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:46,960
you know we'd have to order takeout\h
and and we'd need beer from that yeah\h\h

458
00:42:48,240 --> 00:42:53,200
it's just there's just so much right but if you\h
sort of start to narrow it down and go there are\h\h

459
00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:57,360
a lot of facts too and that's what's interesting\h
to me there are a lot of facts there are facts\h\h

460
00:42:57,360 --> 00:43:04,000
about presidents as we said it's president's day\h
there are facts about observables there are facts\h\h

461
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:09,760
that come from the military reports there's a\h
lot of facts and if we build on those we may\h\h

462
00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:15,520
get to where we start to see the solutions yeah\h
i agree and again one more reason i'm so glad\h\h

463
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:19,840
you and ross have teamed up because i love those\h
conversations the ones where you just kind of sit\h\h

464
00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:23,760
down and start talking you know i could prepare an\h
entire interview but when you and i sit down and\h\h

465
00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:27,360
i figured this would happen with you especially\h
you never know where the conversation is going to\h\h

466
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:33,040
go and that's one thing people love about podcasts\h
is you know the fly on the wall kind of phenomenon\h\h

467
00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:38,400
where you are eavesdropping on a couple of people\h
riffing on ideas and that's great we need that\h\h

468
00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:43,360
but you know keeping with uap something else\h
you touch on that's really important is yeah\h\h

469
00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:47,840
there are facts we have a tremendous amount of\h
data and i'm just like you by the way when you\h\h

470
00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:51,920
were describing you know i'll get with this for\h
a minute and then i'll go to an audio interview\h\h

471
00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:55,360
then i'll pick up an article then i'll look at\h
a website then i'll go back to the book i'm like\h\h

472
00:43:55,360 --> 00:44:00,160
that too i have to jump around and then when\h
i go back tonight it's like i process it right

473
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:07,760
you describe the same process that i do and again\h
i think that that's a great way to engage with a\h\h

474
00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:12,640
topic that is so varied and multifaceted\h
but again the other side of this too is\h\h

475
00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:19,680
i see a lot of people these days kind of say\h
well no uap is this and then to the exclusion\h\h

476
00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:24,880
of a whole lot of other ideas and some of it yeah\h
i admit is pretty far out there some of the the\h\h

477
00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:30,960
body of data that we're working with bryce some\h
of it gets pretty out there uh but should that be\h\h

478
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:37,280
excluded just because it seems unlikely now taking\h
that to uh what what i call i guess an illogical\h\h

479
00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:43,280
extreme i've seen neil degrasse tys uh tyson talk\h
i've gone and i've watched him you know do his\h\h

480
00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:48,000
stand-up science thing you know right here\h
in asheville i love hearing the man talk yeah\h\h

481
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:54,480
but neil look man get with the program on the uap\h
thing i mean talk about towing the old party line\h\h

482
00:44:54,480 --> 00:45:00,080
you recently published an open letter to neil\h
degrasse and said look man you picked the place\h\h

483
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:05,840
we will agree to the terms but let's have a debate\h
and i'm i'd really love to see that debate has he\h\h

484
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:12,320
gotten back with you about that no because i think\h
but let me back up yes that's what i did i mean\h\h

485
00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:19,440
the truth is i like neil degrasse tyson as a human\h
being i've met him twice at emmy awards because\h\h

486
00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:24,240
i have lifetime tickets to the emmys and he's\h
been nominated and he was nice he's met two of\h\h

487
00:45:24,240 --> 00:45:30,000
my children and was very nice to them but i just\h
think he's wrong on this issue and so i thought\h\h

488
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:35,440
okay i could write an article about why neil\h
degrasse tyson is wrong on the issue and people\h\h

489
00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:41,680
have done that and that's fine but i thought okay\h
i'm going to make this a little more theatrical so\h\h

490
00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:47,120
i challenged him to a national debate and that's\h
one of the articles on trailofthesausage.com so\h\h

491
00:45:48,240 --> 00:45:55,280
yes i have done that now uh the first part of it\h
was the article in in that you mentioned and no he\h\h

492
00:45:55,280 --> 00:46:00,640
has not picked up the phone and called me but then\h
i didn't i guess expect him to i just i thought\h\h

493
00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:05,920
maybe he might because you know i'm not nobody\h
uh i i've met him as the former chairman of the\h\h

494
00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:12,480
tv academy and i used to be a cnn correspondent so\h
it's not like he he can say well i'm not i'm not\h\h

495
00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:18,800
gonna do that i mean he could we we could easily\h
do that um but what i am doing right now right now\h\h

496
00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:23,600
uh i mean i guess within the next 10 days i'm\h
composing the letter i'm gonna send to him by\h\h

497
00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:31,360
registered mail and i'm just gonna say look\h
uh all theatrics aside i think it would be the\h\h

498
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:36,480
public would be well served you have your point\h
of view and i know as a man of science you should\h\h

499
00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:42,880
probably have an open mind on certain things\h
and i'm a journalist by training and i also have\h\h

500
00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:47,680
training to have an open mind about what\h
things are let's get together for two hours\h\h

501
00:46:48,720 --> 00:46:54,080
you know let's make it a loosely formatted debate\h
let's have a moderator and let's just see if we\h\h

502
00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:59,840
can shed some light on this thing so i i will\h
report back to you what he's i'm sure he will\h\h

503
00:46:59,840 --> 00:47:05,360
respond to that probably to say no but maybe not\h
and if he does decide to do it i'll tell you this\h\h

504
00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:10,960
i told my wife the other day i said boy if neil\h
degrasse tyson were to call up and say yeah let's\h\h

505
00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:17,120
do it next tuesday i would have to say can we\h
do it in a month because what i would feel like\h\h

506
00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:21,520
i would be representing too many people\h
who are too smart and too knowledgeable\h\h

507
00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:27,280
to screw it up so i'd want to go into you know\h
a month of training and studying i'd be calling\h\h

508
00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:32,960
guys like you at midnight going can you do a\h
couple hours with me you play tyson i'll be me\h\h

509
00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:38,480
and you know or something like that but\h
thank you for bringing that up too because\h\h

510
00:47:39,680 --> 00:47:46,880
i do think uh that the uap ufo reality\h
issue uh could stand a little dose of\h\h

511
00:47:48,240 --> 00:47:55,360
activism with a sense of humor right i'm not out\h
to i'm not out to diminish neil degrasse tyson\h\h

512
00:47:55,360 --> 00:48:02,320
anymore only to diminish his remarks i think and\h
to question maybe why he's making them um and and\h\h

513
00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:07,200
i think that that's okay i mean as long as you're\h
respectful to each other and i i'm sure he and i\h\h

514
00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:13,040
could agree to rules that would be very respectful\h
and i'd like to do it i just think it would be fun\h\h

515
00:48:13,040 --> 00:48:19,360
um and and i think it would probably get a lot of\h
people to listen to it and it would let me put it\h\h

516
00:48:19,360 --> 00:48:24,320
this way i guess this was my thinking yeah there's\h
probably other people better prepared to do it you\h\h

517
00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:29,520
might be a better person to debate him but you\h
weren't writing him a debate challenge right so\h\h

518
00:48:29,520 --> 00:48:35,440
i figured i better do it right same thing so if\h
it came to me and i got the opportunity to do\h\h

519
00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:41,520
that i i would imagine someone like yourself and\h
many other people would say boy i pay for a ticket\h\h

520
00:48:41,520 --> 00:48:46,800
to that i want to see neil degrasse tyson debate\h
ufos i don't know bryce that well but i hope he\h\h

521
00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:52,720
does well you know i'll send him a card um and\h
and that in the aftermath of something like that\h\h

522
00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:58,480
no matter how it came to be there'd be a lot\h
of discussion generated you'd be talking about\h\h

523
00:48:58,480 --> 00:49:03,520
it i'm sure they'd talk about it on coast to\h
coast and take calls and we would just move\h\h

524
00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:09,920
to a different level of that discussion and for\h
and i'll say this and then i'll be done with neil\h\h

525
00:49:09,920 --> 00:49:16,080
he tends to speak in sound bites where he\h
reduces uap to a punch line and i get that\h\h

526
00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:20,400
because you know when i get interviewed about the\h
same thing over and over like i i was the guy in\h\h

527
00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:27,040
charge of the emmys when 9 11 happened so i had\h
to do a hundred hundreds of interviews about how\h\h

528
00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:32,320
the emmys were being postponed but we're coming\h
back and i did get my talking points down and i\h\h

529
00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:37,200
could give you a nice 30-second statement that\h
made it clear what was going on with the emmys\h\h

530
00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:43,600
and he's done that to himself now so he's got his\h
seven or eight things that end with a punch line\h\h

531
00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:50,560
and i feel he needs to be liberated as much as\h
we need to be liberated he needs to be able to\h\h

532
00:49:50,560 --> 00:49:55,600
take those punch lines and let somebody\h
go that's a pretty funny thing neil um\h\h

533
00:49:56,480 --> 00:50:02,560
let's take that one step further though and i\h
would i volunteer to be that guy i guess yeah\h\h

534
00:50:02,560 --> 00:50:06,320
no i think you're the perfect person because again\h
as you mentioned you know you have you know a bit\h\h

535
00:50:06,320 --> 00:50:11,680
of a relationship or you know you have you know\h
some some history with him sure to some degree\h\h

536
00:50:11,680 --> 00:50:15,440
you're also someone who's knowledgeable about\h
this subject but not someone who is necessarily\h\h

537
00:50:15,440 --> 00:50:21,520
hard line on the these things or exclusively\h
either russian or china chinese drones or\h\h

538
00:50:21,520 --> 00:50:24,960
maybe something else but we don't even you know\h
speculate about what that is you know you're not\h\h

539
00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:30,400
the hardline kind of modern uap guy who's saying\h
it's you know ball lightning or something you're\h\h

540
00:50:30,400 --> 00:50:35,600
somebody who is knowledgeable bryce on the history\h
of the topic and who looks at the current debate\h\h

541
00:50:35,600 --> 00:50:40,880
but also in the context of what we've had decades\h
of behind us and you're and you're willing to in\h\h

542
00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:46,000
a friendly you know uh environment and also with\h
respect to humor i think that's really important\h\h

543
00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:50,560
it's just like what valet was saying you know it's\h
quoted by wired recently there's a humor aspect\h\h

544
00:50:50,560 --> 00:50:56,320
of this whole phenomena it's almost like we're\h
all being trolled by uap yes it is and that is\h\h

545
00:50:58,320 --> 00:51:00,800
are you the first person to say\h
that because i like that i think\h\h

546
00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:06,160
you should put a copyright on that one that\h
we are being trolled by uap in some or some\h\h

547
00:51:06,160 --> 00:51:11,280
some aspect of uap is trolling us i just wanted to\h
highlight something you just said because i think\h\h

548
00:51:11,280 --> 00:51:17,120
it goes and we must underline it there are a lot\h
of people on if there's a spectrum of uap thought\h\h

549
00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:21,440
that goes from there to there there are some\h
people down here and there are some people down\h\h

550
00:51:21,440 --> 00:51:28,000
there and they will and they're mutually exclusive\h
usually often and they each take the position\h\h

551
00:51:28,000 --> 00:51:37,040
that they know the facts the truth right it may\h
be someone who says i can summon ufos at will\h\h

552
00:51:37,760 --> 00:51:43,520
and if you give me some money i will go summon\h
you a ufo to talk to okay i don't know that\h\h

553
00:51:43,520 --> 00:51:50,240
i believe that person there'll be other people\h
at the other end um who say all of this is bunk\h\h

554
00:51:50,240 --> 00:51:57,280
and um i'm a hardcore skeptic and it's clear\h
that every single one of them can be explained\h\h

555
00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:05,200
and everything else is a lie or a hoax or\h
something i'm i'm in the radical center\h\h

556
00:52:05,840 --> 00:52:15,600
okay i'm willing to believe one thing i believe\h
there is a legitimate reality to the uap slash ufo\h\h

557
00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:22,000
phenomenon something is going on and i'm not crazy\h
to say that the u.s government says it so does the\h\h

558
00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:26,880
french government and the brazilian government\h
and the russian government lots of people say\h\h

559
00:52:26,880 --> 00:52:33,120
there is something going on i am willing\h
to believe that in the menu of explanations\h\h

560
00:52:33,120 --> 00:52:38,560
for that something that is going on some of\h
them are extreme and strange and weird okay\h\h

561
00:52:39,280 --> 00:52:45,120
and i'm willing to believe that if that's true\h
i should have an open mind to the person who\h\h

562
00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:54,000
says he can summon a ufo or was abducted uh in\h
the middle of the night or someone who says you\h\h

563
00:52:54,000 --> 00:52:59,040
know i don't believe any of it because maybe\h
the phenomenon presents itself differently\h\h

564
00:52:59,040 --> 00:53:05,280
along that spectrum and maybe guys like i said\h
you are a radical centrist as well which is\h\h

565
00:53:05,280 --> 00:53:10,960
i'm here you know that tends to be what ross\h
coltart is and what you are and many of your\h\h

566
00:53:10,960 --> 00:53:17,520
comrades at the debrief are were we're in the\h
center but we're radical and that we know there's\h\h

567
00:53:17,520 --> 00:53:22,800
more to know and we want to know it and we want to\h
get to work on it we want to quit screwing around\h\h

568
00:53:22,800 --> 00:53:27,600
so yeah that's where i am actually you know\h
what i've got i gotta jump up and grab this\h\h

569
00:53:27,600 --> 00:53:33,600
because you keep you keep saying that i actually\h
have a book called the radical oh my god i mean i\h\h

570
00:53:33,600 --> 00:53:37,840
i know exactly what you're talking about i'm not\h
gonna go copyright that one i'm just gonna leave\h\h

571
00:53:39,280 --> 00:53:44,800
but again to your point again that is is where i\h
kind of put myself ideologically not only on this\h\h

572
00:53:44,800 --> 00:53:49,040
topic but i mean when it comes to politics when\h
it comes to religion you know i've never really\h\h

573
00:53:49,040 --> 00:53:54,560
liked the idea of saying well i am this or that\h
if i don't have all the data and uap is a great\h\h

574
00:53:54,560 --> 00:53:58,720
example of a topic where we have a whole lot\h
of data we don't have enough to draw firm com\h\h

575
00:53:58,720 --> 00:54:03,040
you know conclusions we have to basically\h
be open-minded but you know coming back to\h\h

576
00:54:03,040 --> 00:54:06,880
this piece that you'd written recently which i\h
have the title of here this was the one titled\h\h

577
00:54:06,880 --> 00:54:12,320
ufo confirmation a change is going come you know\h
people need to go read this because you mentioned\h\h

578
00:54:12,320 --> 00:54:16,880
in this article i mean a lot of everything\h
from existential concerns related to this topic\h\h

579
00:54:17,600 --> 00:54:22,880
to you know how we need to try to the\h
best of our ability as humans to wrap our\h\h

580
00:54:22,880 --> 00:54:27,680
our heads around this uh you wrote at one point in\h
the article you know there seems to be evidence of\h\h

581
00:54:27,680 --> 00:54:33,040
another intelligence a presumably non-human\h
one that is interacting with us it appears\h\h

582
00:54:33,040 --> 00:54:39,120
to have the power of great technology and yet\h
it may be real in a different way than we are\h\h

583
00:54:39,760 --> 00:54:47,040
what did you mean when you wrote that well well\h
by the way that that article i i just you know i\h\h

584
00:54:47,040 --> 00:54:54,160
write a lot of long re sourced articles i'm along\h
by is not the word i guess but they might be a 10\h\h

585
00:54:54,160 --> 00:54:59,840
minute read or something um that one's a four\h
minute read i think because i just decided this\h\h

586
00:54:59,840 --> 00:55:05,600
time i'm not i'm not all about i'm not proving\h
any points i'm sort of giving my estimate of the\h\h

587
00:55:05,600 --> 00:55:12,160
situation you mentioned estimate of the situation\h
and i uh that they were trying to write in 1948\h\h

588
00:55:12,160 --> 00:55:17,200
on one of your past podcasts and and i think\h
that that is what i was trying to do all right\h\h

589
00:55:17,200 --> 00:55:25,680
so what do i mean by they may not be real in\h
the same way we are well um i mean there are\h\h

590
00:55:27,440 --> 00:55:34,400
if you believe the avalanche of cases that we've\h
read over the years some of them are physically\h\h

591
00:55:34,400 --> 00:55:40,560
real some of them appear physically real but there\h
isn't a lot of evidence to support that sometimes\h\h

592
00:55:40,560 --> 00:55:46,080
there's landing marks sometimes there's nothing\h
sometimes there's all the stuff at skinwalker\h\h

593
00:55:46,080 --> 00:55:52,720
ranch where you say i don't know what am i to make\h
about that um if something can come in and out of\h\h

594
00:55:52,720 --> 00:55:59,120
our reality are they real i i don't mean to get um\h
goofily metaphysical by saying that i didn't mean\h\h

595
00:55:59,120 --> 00:56:08,320
to say wow they're just you know i i'm just saying\h
i'm a human being i only have the senses that god\h\h

596
00:56:08,320 --> 00:56:14,400
gave me to work with all right and working with\h
them i'm trying to experience my world and is\h\h

597
00:56:14,400 --> 00:56:20,560
in the totality that that i'm able to and based\h
on that totality i see the world in one way you\h\h

598
00:56:20,560 --> 00:56:26,800
know i like when people say uh maybe it's all a\h
simulation we're in a simulation i don't believe\h\h

599
00:56:26,800 --> 00:56:33,280
that because i'm a human being and i see it as\h
real right other people say well uh it's it's uh\h\h

600
00:56:33,920 --> 00:56:39,520
it's time travel because all time is happening\h
at the same time and i say well maybe i even\h\h

601
00:56:39,520 --> 00:56:45,040
wrote a movie about that by the way but but the\h
truth is for me i'm a human being i experience\h\h

602
00:56:45,040 --> 00:56:51,040
time like a river right so time goes from here to\h
there that's how i experience now a physicist may\h\h

603
00:56:51,040 --> 00:56:58,720
tell me that's not right you know i experience\h
my life here on earth as the only life on earth\h\h

604
00:56:58,720 --> 00:57:05,440
right maybe there's multiverses i don't know so\h
i'm just saying there's a reality check that i\h\h

605
00:57:05,440 --> 00:57:11,200
don't understand and that the people who think\h
they understand probably only have theories about\h\h

606
00:57:11,760 --> 00:57:18,560
i guess right yeah no very well said and you know\h
again everybody uses this quote because the guy\h\h

607
00:57:18,560 --> 00:57:25,280
hit the nail so squarely on the head yeah but uh\h
you know arthur c clarke and that third law right\h\h

608
00:57:25,840 --> 00:57:31,840
you know any significantly advanced technology\h
uh as observed by a lesser advanced civilization\h\h

609
00:57:31,840 --> 00:57:36,960
it's gonna look like magic to them that's true\h
and there's a reason why everybody ad nauseum\h\h

610
00:57:36,960 --> 00:57:41,280
continues to use that quote but again it very\h
well may be that there's a technological basis\h\h

611
00:57:41,280 --> 00:57:46,400
for what we observe with uap but that technology\h
is so far in advance of what we understand\h\h

612
00:57:47,360 --> 00:57:52,560
that we perceive that and we can't account for\h
it it does not seem to behave in accordance\h\h

613
00:57:52,560 --> 00:57:57,760
with what we understand in our very likely\h
limited understanding of the physical universe\h\h

614
00:57:57,760 --> 00:58:02,400
even though we think we've put it all together i\h
remember john alexander in his book talking about\h\h

615
00:58:02,400 --> 00:58:07,760
attending a conference where a physicist got up\h
and said on stage well you know we figured out\h\h

616
00:58:07,760 --> 00:58:12,160
about 99 of how all this stuff in the universe\h
works and now we're basically just kind of tying\h\h

617
00:58:12,160 --> 00:58:17,360
together the little loose ends and i'm thinking\h
guys we as human beings at least as far as we know\h\h

618
00:58:17,920 --> 00:58:21,520
all discussions about secret space programs\h
and things aside for a moment folks\h\h

619
00:58:21,520 --> 00:58:27,360
as far as we know we've never gone humans further\h
than the moon okay now we've sent probes way out\h\h

620
00:58:27,360 --> 00:58:31,920
there we've got robots on mars right now that\h
are doing dirty work for us literally dirty work\h\h

621
00:58:31,920 --> 00:58:38,560
they're collecting like dirt right now and we're\h
going to try and use a rocket ladies and gentlemen\h\h

622
00:58:38,560 --> 00:58:43,280
to bring those samples back to earth i mean we are\h
still comparatively in the stone age compared to\h\h

623
00:58:43,280 --> 00:58:49,840
whatever this technology technology if that be\h
what it is that the uap seems to exhibit to us\h\h

624
00:58:49,840 --> 00:58:54,640
you know for us rather i should say bryce to\h
say sitting down here on our little mud ball\h\h

625
00:58:54,640 --> 00:58:59,360
having gone no further than the little\h
shop the little market at the corner\h\h

626
00:58:59,360 --> 00:59:04,800
that we've figured it all out that is\h
the height of arrogance it's it's absurd\h\h

627
00:59:04,800 --> 00:59:09,440
and then you look at you look at the strangeness\h
though of the uap phenomenon it may not be strange\h\h

628
00:59:09,440 --> 00:59:13,600
one day maybe uh you know a century from now\h
people are going to hear this conversation and\h\h

629
00:59:13,600 --> 00:59:18,080
say listen to those two guys you know now we have\h
a really good grasp on this but we aren't to that\h\h

630
00:59:18,080 --> 00:59:22,640
point yet to me that's not mysterious it's just\h
evidence that we have not got the full picture\h\h

631
00:59:23,840 --> 00:59:29,120
yeah you know we haven't figured it out by the\h
way if anyone ever asked me what um why i say\h\h

632
00:59:29,120 --> 00:59:32,960
that about reality i'm just going to use what you\h
said because that sounded even better than what i\h\h

633
00:59:32,960 --> 00:59:37,520
said i liked that that is exactly right you know\h
i wanted to talk about yeah i was mentioning time\h\h

634
00:59:37,520 --> 00:59:42,800
and we experienced time different just one thing\h
in response to what you were saying i'm not the\h\h

635
00:59:42,800 --> 00:59:48,880
young man i used to be all right i remember coming\h
to l.a and i would take pitches you know and i was\h\h

636
00:59:48,880 --> 00:59:53,760
always the youngest guy in the room and i loved it\h
you know i mean i would go in and and people would\h\h

637
00:59:53,760 --> 00:59:59,840
be happy to see me i was the young guy with fresh\h
new ideas and sold a lot of things and it was cool\h\h

638
01:00:00,400 --> 01:00:05,280
and uh something happened along the way i\h
didn't die so now i'm not the youngest guy\h\h

639
01:00:05,280 --> 01:00:09,440
in the room sometimes i'm the oldest guy in the\h
room and sometimes the rooms aren't even physical\h\h

640
01:00:09,440 --> 01:00:15,680
anymore they're virtual but i'm i'm still i'm\h
now the wizard guy in the room which is not a\h\h

641
01:00:15,680 --> 01:00:20,320
comfortable fit for me but you know you take you\h
take the hands that have been dealt with you but\h\h

642
01:00:22,160 --> 01:00:29,920
given my current age i feel the same frustration\h
that many others who have now departed have\h\h

643
01:00:29,920 --> 01:00:34,880
felt people like stanton friedman and james\h
mcdonald and people like that who went before us\h\h

644
01:00:35,760 --> 01:00:43,680
who had to pass on not knowing exactly what our\h
best thinking was and it makes me feel a sense of\h\h

645
01:00:43,680 --> 01:00:49,360
urgency to what we're doing that i i don't think\h
i've ever acknowledged in my career or my life\h\h

646
01:00:49,360 --> 01:00:55,760
before i just feel like and maybe it's selfish it\h
might be selfish maybe i'm just a selfish guy that\h\h

647
01:00:55,760 --> 01:01:00,560
says okay well i'm getting up in years so you\h
need to tell me what's going on so that i can\h\h

648
01:01:01,120 --> 01:01:07,040
shuffle away you know in in in pleasantness\h
but i don't think it's that i just think\h\h

649
01:01:07,040 --> 01:01:15,040
societally we're feeling the way i'm feeling right\h
now which is okay i get it maybe you needed to\h\h

650
01:01:15,040 --> 01:01:20,880
you know keep this under wraps for a while but\h
come on guys let's show our cards right now\h\h

651
01:01:20,880 --> 01:01:23,840
uh the the world couldn't be\h
in a more desperate situation\h\h

652
01:01:24,960 --> 01:01:31,520
do we really have to play this game anymore let's\h
all get this out there so that's sort of why i\h\h

653
01:01:32,720 --> 01:01:37,440
write about it on trail of the saucers.com i'll\h
be honest with you that's why i reached out to\h\h

654
01:01:37,440 --> 01:01:42,160
ross coldheart for need to know dot today and\h
that is why my friend i'm talking to you because\h\h

655
01:01:43,600 --> 01:01:50,080
somehow we have got to take this moment and it's\h
a historical moment there's no doubt about it\h\h

656
01:01:50,080 --> 01:01:55,360
and turn it into something else and by the\h
way historical moments i just have to tell you\h\h

657
01:01:55,360 --> 01:02:05,920
something funny um on this we all we all remember\h
december 17th 2017 the new york times thing i was\h\h

658
01:02:05,920 --> 01:02:11,840
in new orleans at the world war ii museum watching\h
because i have a movie that's uh shooting this\h\h

659
01:02:11,840 --> 01:02:17,200
summer about the last battle of world war ii and\h
i was so i was doing research and i was in there\h\h

660
01:02:17,760 --> 01:02:22,320
and i came out and i looked at my phone and i'm\h
looking at my phone and it's got a voice message\h\h

661
01:02:22,320 --> 01:02:28,800
right so uh i figure like oh well i may be on\h
holiday but somebody's calling me about something\h\h

662
01:02:28,800 --> 01:02:35,280
so i excuse myself from the family and go\h
around the corner to listen and it's dan aykroyd

663
01:02:37,440 --> 01:02:42,960
on december 17 2017 saying have you seen\h
the newspaper oh my god and then he reads\h\h

664
01:02:42,960 --> 01:02:47,840
the title and he goes you gotta meet ralph\h
blumenthal and blah blah blah blah and um\h\h

665
01:02:48,720 --> 01:02:54,800
i i just so i i saved it and i was listening to\h
it the other day and it ends by him saying and\h\h

666
01:02:54,800 --> 01:03:00,000
i'll probably misquote it right now he goes but\h
boy just wait till they see what's coming wait\h\h

667
01:03:00,000 --> 01:03:06,000
till we see what's coming to planet earth acroid\h
out you know and i just thought okay first of all\h\h

668
01:03:06,640 --> 01:03:14,000
great moment in my life uh to have mr ghostbusters\h
calling me uh about on that important day but also\h\h

669
01:03:14,000 --> 01:03:19,680
it gave value to that day and what it meant it\h
was a shift happening and it also means uh to\h\h

670
01:03:19,680 --> 01:03:25,440
me what dan concluded a man who when i first\h
met him we bonded only over ufos i mean it was\h\h

671
01:03:25,440 --> 01:03:31,200
like oh my god you know this you know that for\h
him to say wait till they see what's coming man\h\h

672
01:03:32,080 --> 01:03:38,560
and and i think that that's true that's where we\h
are right now well yeah i think dan gets the quote\h\h

673
01:03:38,560 --> 01:03:42,880
of the day on that one and i want to thank you for\h
not only sharing that for but also for being my\h\h

674
01:03:42,880 --> 01:03:46,960
guest here bryce you're one of the great ones and\h
i'm sure this isn't going to be the last time we\h\h

675
01:03:46,960 --> 01:03:51,840
have this conversation i think they're going to be\h
many more next time take out maybe even cocktails\h\h

676
01:03:51,840 --> 01:03:56,960
because you know we could do this for hours man\h
that would be great yeah by the way thank you and\h\h

677
01:03:56,960 --> 01:04:01,920
thanks to your audience for for listening and all\h
that and it's a great show and and give my regards\h\h

678
01:04:01,920 --> 01:04:06,880
to everybody at the debrief as well most certainly\h
and you give mine to ross i hope to talk to him in\h\h

679
01:04:06,880 --> 01:04:11,440
the days ahead as well and listen again uh please\h
tell folks where they can find your work online\h\h

680
01:04:11,440 --> 01:04:17,520
okay um i have two places where i'd love you to\h
look uh the the cold heart and sable podcast need\h\h

681
01:04:17,520 --> 01:04:24,240
to know is that need to know dot today not com\h
today need to know dot today and then the articles\h\h

682
01:04:24,240 --> 01:04:30,160
that you've been kind enough to mention are at uh\h
on hosted on a medium site trail of the saucers\h\h

683
01:04:30,160 --> 01:04:37,040
and i created a url for that trailofthesaucers.com\h
so you do that i'm very happy but again\h\h

684
01:04:37,680 --> 01:04:42,880
shameless plugs aside this was very fun i'd like\h
to do it again oh we certainly will i'm going to\h\h